Amnesty by Any Other Name

By Scott
April 26, 2006 at 10:35 pm in Politics

How can the President be so right on the war on terror and so apallingly awful on his domestic policy? This Washington Times article outlines his stance on what is essentially the illegal immigration amnesty bill. My feelings mirror that of our esteemed Webloggin Editor on this one. I am currently fighting the gag reflex as I write. time and again this President feels the way to win is to out Democrat the Democrats. If you consider a bad deal for the American people as winning then President Bush is winning all over.

If the reports are true and the President ends up endorsing a reform bill authored by this group this is what you can expect:

The Hagel-Martinez bill would divide illegal aliens into three groups. Most of those who have been in the country for more than five years would be granted access to citizenship, those here more than two years but less than five years would have to go home first but would also be eligible for citizenship, while those here two years or less would not have a path. Even as Mr. Bush is moving in that direction, the House majority leader yesterday rejected it. “This idea that was being kicked around the Senate about providing some sort of amnesty for those who have been here five years or more, I just think it was a very big mistake,” House Majority Leader John A. Boehner, Ohio Republican, said yesterday. “You are just inviting more people to come.”

Is it somehow less illegal to have broken the law if you did it 5 or more years ago as opposed to 2 years or even less than that? A path to citizenship without enforcement is in fact amnesty Mr. President. The term limited President may not need to consider approval ratings and it is thankful for that because this move is sure to bring him to a new round “unprecedented lows” in the polls. Amnesty is amnesty regardless of what we call it

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This entry was posted on Wednesday, April 26th, 2006 at 10:35 pm and is filed under Politics. You can follow any responses to this entry through the comments RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or you can trackback from your own site using the following Trackback URL for this post: http://biloxi.webloggin.com/2006/amnesty-by-any-other-name/trackback/.

24 Responses to “Amnesty by Any Other Name”

  1. MountainSpring says:

    For all the jackasses who want to impeach Bush, they finally have a real reason

    BUILD THE FENCE *N O W* MR. PRESIDENT

  2. Webloggin says:

    Amnesty Despite the Will of the People…

    It is time to send this message to our politicians. Say no to amnesty and yes to pro-American, pro enforcement immigration policies. Let them know that your vote is not to be taken for granted.

    ……

  3. dagon says:

    biloxi,

    well for one reason, he isn’t ‘right’ on the war on terrorism!

    you apparently haven’t checked ANY of the estimates of the growth or strength of wahabist-style terrorism as the results of bush’s policies.

    ALL indicators suggest that bush’s policies have actually exacerbated an already deep problem:

    [U.S. Figures Show Sharp Global Rise In Terrorism
    State Dept. Will Not Put Data in Report

    By Susan B. Glasser
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Wednesday, April 27, 2005; Page A01

    The number of serious international terrorist incidents more than tripled last year, according to U.S. government figures, a sharp upswing in deadly attacks that the State Department has decided not to make public in its annual report on terrorism due to Congress this week.]

    http://makeashorterlink.com/?N61A229FA

    –but to your other point, i couldn’t agree more that bush is about to cave on illegal immigration. and while i believe that the senate bill is much more reasonable than the house’s; bush is set to reject both in favor of some global amnesty program which does little to address the problem and sends a bad signal to american worker who is trying to eke out a living on devalued wages.

    peace

  4. Biloxi says:

    Ahhhh dagon, we missed your arrogant insignificance. The Presient’s policies couldn’t exacerbate anything. We didn’t do anything and they hit us multiple time prior to 9/11. So now we take it to them, of course the incidents are up in the middle east, they’re desperate. As far tas they think this is Custer’s last stand and they’ll try to turn public opinion here by getting knuckle heads like you to pop off about “the terrible cost”.

    Drop it, over 3000 innocents are dead and 1500 or more brave US Military as well who are making sure that the mass slaughter of US civilians never happens again. Think what you may, you are wrong.

    The other point of course was the main point but I wouldn’t expect you would pass up a chance to expectorate your formulaic nonsense.

  5. dagon says:

    biloxi,

    well then pardon me if ask what exactly your definition of a ’successful’ strategy against terrorism would be; because by all measures, if stopping or lessening the incursion of terrorism is a desired goal, then what we have been doing hasn’t exactly been prudent.

    and only a freaking idiot would make a statement that ‘the president’s policies couldn’t exacerbate anything’.

    you ever think that the saying that this idiot president likes to bandy about, ‘we’re fighting them in iraq so we don’t have to fight them over here’ works both ways? ‘SOME’ of them are killing us over there so they don’t have to go through the planning to kill us over here; plus they’re enabling us to ruin our reputation while acting as a recruiting poster for their efforts in the process.

    sounds like a winning scenario for the terrorists if you ask me. well, you don’t have to ask me. just ask any expert on the subject and try to keep him/her from laughing when you deliver your boy-howdy speech on just how well bush’s strategy against terrorism is going.

    btw, i was in total agreement with you on the immigration thing.

    peace

  6. Biloxi says:

    I won’t pardon you dagon, nor will I honor your insincere request, we know it is all hot air.

    How many terrorist attacks have occurred on American soil since 9/11? They are attacking the military overe there so civilians don’t get killed over here.

    Call me an idiot one more time and you will be deleted for cause. You spout the DU rhetoric well but it has all been heard and dismissed before. They don’t need recruiting posters to attempt to kill us. Khobar Towers/The USS Cole/WTC 1/African Embasssy Bombings et all happened BEFORE we went to Iraq. You are wrong and this will not be discussed further. This post is about immigration and your honing in on a seperate point is the same diversionary crap that is often pulled by your ilk.

    Any more on this line of commentary will be deleted for irrelevance to the point. Remember dagon, my blog, you are a guest here. Comport yourself like a grownup, I know you’ve got it in you.

  7. dagon says:

    on immigration,

    one nagging question that i’ve always had was why george bush seemed so stuck in vicente fox’s pocket.

    the political benefits never seemed very clear to me and as i am vehemently against amnesty for illegals and believe that a complete overhaul of our immigration policy is necessary in order to secure our future as a nation, i thought that this was simply another case of george bush being against everything that i stood for.

    but it had to have some POLITICAL advantage or surely republicans wouldn’t keep voting for him right? well, we’ll see. this newsweek article helps sift throught some of the fog:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6884660/site/newsweek/

    peace

  8. Biloxi says:

    George Bush is simply wrong on this and always has been. Immigration is great, it is the illegal part people find reprehensible.

    There are no political benefits, they are just perceived, unless we entertain the idea of letting illegals vote.

    The Newsweek article is worth all of the money in my pocket, about $32.50. Newsweek is slante and Tancredo is somewhat daft though his message on immigration does resonate with many.

    Get off it, you read infer too much.

  9. Jlanute says:

    Well, first of all we will no longer be refering to our president as an idiot. This is a blog site for intellengent (even if we can’t spell) adults. Please do not reduce this to the same level as the poop slinging, bar room tirades of “Air America”. Thank you.

    How nice it is to be with so many of you who have NEVER broken the law! Not recently, not five years ago. But if you did break the law, it was probably not something as base and lowly as wanting a job and a home, no, I am sure it something nobel and righteous like stealing or dope smoking or beating Uncle Sam out of his share of an ‘under the table’ payment.
    Yep, an awfull lot of first ’stone throwers’ out there. I am proud to be among so many ‘Compassionate Conservatives’. Were you not listening to Bob Dole at his convention?

    So you want to throw them all out? Good idea.
    Ah, what about the children? What children? Oh, those children!
    The ones born to the illegals on American soil.
    Doesn’t that make them Americans? Going to throw them out too? Leave them here parentless?
    For those of who call your selves Christians, what would Jesus do?

    I agree, build a wall, rolls of razor wire, big dogs and water cannons if necessary, but think about something else, the ecomony, the loans that will be in default, the landloards that will be left with empty units, the cost of a flippin’ head of lettuce.
    Business WILL fail, American’s will suffer and it will be an economic disaster.
    For once, address the consequences of what you propose, lets debate the down side to your feeling good about kicking out those law breakers. After all you would NEVER do anything like those Mexican Scufflaws.

  10. blakstne11 says:

    So Jlanute, by your account, we should let the man in the story below go free. It happened 14 yrs ago.

    If we do incarcerate him, we will have to pay more taxes to feed, house, and give premium medical care to. Hell he will even have dental care, I don’t. So with all of that said, should he be let go? You read and tell me.

    Man tried twice in slaying sentenced to 60 years

    Published April 27, 2006

    WILL COUNTY — A Will County judge Wednesday sentenced a former Joliet man to the maximum 60 years in prison for the second time in the murder of a father of three almost 14 years ago.

    The first conviction of Rene Martinez, 29, came in 2002, after a witness in the Nov. 28, 1992, murder resurfaced. An appeals court reversed the verdict, saying the necessary legal steps weren’t taken before Martinez was outfitted with an electronic stun belt during trial.

    A jury in February again convicted him in the shooting death of Leonard Myers, 37, of Joliet, who was mistaken for a rival gang member. Circuit Judge Daniel Rozak, who presided over both trials, again sentenced him to 60 years.

    At sentencing, a Joliet man testified, as he did in 2002, that Martinez shot him in the head in 2000.

    Copyright © 2006, Chicago Tribune

  11. Biloxi says:

    Come on now JL… You cannot equate illegally entering the country and continuing to live here under the same conditions with blowing doobies in high school, stealing or even the multitudinous tax cheats. It is an entirely different situation with economic impacts that reach beyond the individual families. In any of the cases you mention I have never seen a mass amnesty offered by the government either. This is all about votes BOTH parties are pandering to get.

    The children born to illegals can go with them back to their country of origin and APPLY for citizenship like the people who are currently waiting, you know the ones who didn’t jump the line. The resident status of the children does not preclude the kids from going with their parents and returning in the future. At such a time they can sponsor their parents. Anchor babies make poor economic and political policy.

    The 14th Amendment can also be interpreted to deny children born to illegals the rights of citizenships.

    “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and the States wherein they reside.”

    What does subject to the jurisdiction thereof mean? We could argue that illegals are not subject to the jursdiction of the US but are actually subject to the jurisdiction of the individual state which can rule as it pleases. I

    That angle will always fall flat, being for the rule of law does not make one devoid of compassion.

    The down side is we will never find all 11 milion at once so illegals will always be here. Legitimizing their lawlessness is not the answer.

    No to amnesty.

  12. Jlanute says:

    Mass amnesty to law breakers? Jimmy Carter to the draft dodgers?
    You have both artfully dodged the question of the economic distaster, compassion and what would Jesus do? I await those responses.
    As for the murderer, how does this fit in with ‘compassion’?

  13. Biloxi says:

    I didn’t agree with Jimmy Carter’s Amnesty program either. I was responding to the scenario you brought up.

    There will be no economic disaster, but some things would cost more. I could give a rip if the people in Barrington have to pay more to get their lawn done or maybe have to do it themselves. As for compassion, making a guy sneak around and paying them below market wage soes not constitute compassion. While this is not the case with EVERY employer of illegals it is the case in many if not most cases. I don’t even have a problem with bringing in immigrants. Post jobs available and sponsor those one would wish to hire then bring them here legally. That is true reform. After a period of time the employer and or family can then sponsor them and get them on the path to citizenship. Retroactive amnesty does not cut it.

    As for What would Jesus do. He is devine, I am flawed so I cannot say with 100% certainty but there is biblical precedence that Jesus believed in following the law of the land. Give to God what is his and render unto Caesar that which is his. You know that one though I paraphrased it poorly. He further stated his Kingdom is in heaven and did not advocate overthrowing or ignoring governmental law. He had a bigger problem with the Pharisees then government.

  14. Jlanute says:

    If you have mass default on home loans, car loans and credit card loans, if you hault the processing of produce and commerance in general and you depleate the work force I think you might have a problem with the economy. Could be why the president is taking a cautious route.
    True businessess (not garage shops and Greak restaurants)do not sneak or pay below market wage, nor do they cheat the goverment of it’s due.
    To not collect FICA and SS or to not deposit same carries grave penalties, as for below market wage, where are the lilly red, white and blue entry level employees?
    Interesting article by Victor Hanson in today’s Trib. “You knew we were illegal when we came here to work here, said nothing when we took low paying jobs. Now when you think there are too many of us, you change the rules, you tell us we are alone, call us law breakers and tell us we must leave”
    I agree, where was all this anger and righeousness ten years ago? The way I see it, Katerina was over and the lefties had nothing new to bitch at the president about so this seemed like a good thing, What we didn’t have this problem in the eight Clinton years?
    and now the so called compassionate right has jumped on the band wagon.
    Tell me B, when did you get all fired up about this issue? Ten years ago? Three? Last month?
    The doggone border patrol has not had enough money to patrol that border in a hundred years, what is going to change? I was talking to a very wise man from Mexico today and I mentioned a wall. He laughed. He told me if we were to build a wall ten feet high, we better dig down twenty feet and send the wall below ground as well.
    They will find a way around it, through it, over or under it. The Coyotes won’t stop. Hell you can’t stop the drug traffic comming in this country ( why don’t you get angry and write about that)you think your going to stop people who want to work and eat?
    I do have an idea.
    Remember NAFTA?
    Just a thought, but instead of sending work to Hong Kong and China, why not open the boarder to American manufacturing in Mexico?
    Make companys sending work to China and the far East suffer with massive tarriffs and taxes and give huge incentives to send machinery and assembly to Mexico, the work force is unending and the would be illegals would rather stay in Mexico if there were jobs. Forget global stay in the America’s

  15. Biloxi says:

    I read Hanson’s article. I didn’t hire any illegals and that others did, does not legitimize the rest.

    Lenders who do not do thorough research desrve default, but you are assuming the depoorted won’t have the opportunity to sell their homes before exit. Cars and Credit cards are the same, if the lenders do shoddy work and don’t demand real identification, I have no sympathy.

    Since you read Hanson, I assume you caught the article on the front page of the Chicago Tribune as well.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/services/newspaper/premium/printedition/Friday/chi-0604280145apr28,2,6140525.story?coll=chi-printnewsfriday-hed

    Now the effects are disputed but they show some real problems as well. It may not be the small businessman but you can bet that some large companies exploit the situation to drive down wages.

    The point you seem to ignore as does much of the MSM in this debate is that I (and others) are all for immigration, but it has to be legal. Up the quotas, sponsor those who want to work and bring them in. It would be better for all.

    The anger came when these folks started marching, blocking traffic and telling us what we have to do with our country, carrying Meixican flags and neglecting to assimilate or speak our language. In one form or another this issue has been around for a long time. I am not angry but I have been concerned about this issue in one form or another for some time, but especially since 9/11. We cannot have people here illegally under the new reality.

    I’m glad you have a wise Mexican friend, his disrespect for our laws makes me dig my feet in even harder. The part you and and everyone else ignores is NAFTA didn’t raise the standards of the Mexican worker because their country doesn’t give a flip. Investing in Mexico has already happened and it didn’t work. How about a novel idea? Why don’t we have MEXICANS invest in Mexico? I would be more sympathetic if they didn’t come up here and work then send the money to the tune of 20 billion dollars out of the country. There is no respect for us, our autonomy, our culture or the rule of law in many cases. I’m tired of the “only trying to feed the family story”. They can apply for entry like everyone else.

    Americans have always suceeded because we are innovators and leaders, now we throw our hands up and say breaking the law is the only way? You may buy it but I suspect you aren’t that simple or a quitter. You are too smart to take such a simplistic approach, it just appears to be easier now that this is at the forefront.

  16. Jlanute says:

    Business is business, we don’t operate like the goverment or a household. When the goverment runs low on cash, they raise the price of it’s good and services.
    When the house hold runs low, they hit the credit cards and when those max out, BK. For the most part, you get to keep the stuff and walk away, start fresh.

    When a business runs out of cash, they are done.
    We don’t get credit cards, we back up everything with collatoral and personal guarantees.
    Business BK means liquidation, forclosure on personal guarantees, IRS nightmares.

    We cant wait around for spoiled rotten American kids to drop their tounge rings and come into the work force, same for collage grads who think their poop is sugar, no real experence, just give be the big bucks and all the bennies.

    We small business are moms and pops who stuck their necks out as a path to a better life.
    We bare the brunt of all rath, tax increases, comp claims, insurance increases in numbers the average household would not understand.
    We take every hit, every gas price increase, every new regulation.
    Our prices remain consistant, our service must stand tall. We must look for ways to cut costs but not corners.
    Cheap labor, your elected officals and Joe SixPack gave us no choice. We train them and they are there every day, not like the spoiled Americans who get a pimple on their butt and stay home to call a lawyer.
    Our company will not be effected on May 1, they will all be there working, because I treat them with respect, give them a decent wage, minimum health care and a chance to grow themselves.
    I have the same opportunitys for any one who comes in to apply. This is what I have to work with.

  17. blakstne11 says:

    I can promise this will be my last post on this subject matter. There really is no debate. Illegal is Illegal and no way around it.

    JL, just because you and any other “small buisness” wants to use illegal labor at a lower wage to justify your need, it does not make it now ok.

    Hey, heres a thought, I cant get by, prices are too high, so I and all of my friends start to rob banks. Hey we had to get by and feed our families. We couldnot find a good wage job cause the illegals drove down the wage. I guess that would be ok.

    Last time, illegal is illegal and the law should be enforced. I am with B, any bank, business who gets harmed by enforcing our current laws, deserves just as much.

  18. Biloxi says:

    Jl - you are transferring your personal experience to the entire illegal immigrant community. Many on the opposite side do the same and it is wrong in both instances.

    Not every illegal is a hard working innocent just trying to support families. Some drive illegally, cause accidents and leave the other driver with the repair bill when they had the misfortune of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Some are criminals and are here to participate in various nefarious activities. Nearly all send a large portion of the money out of the U.S. to Mexico, boosting their economy by up to 20 billion a year while harming ours. Some own houses while many live 20 to a 2 bedroom apartment and send the money back home.

    You cannot assume your experience is unique and that all illegals are the same. Your plight is not uncommon and while understandable, it is still not a viable long term solution. We need to set a a guest worker program wherein employers like yourself can access a database of some sort in Mexico or Central America, sponsor the people on a guest worker basis and if they work out as hard working, valuable members of society, (as many are) then a path to citizenship should be made avaialble.

    Simply, this needs to happen through some kind of sensible, legal process that allows us to track the type of immigrants coming in. People simply cannot do what they want, because they want, regardless of the circumstance. To allow continuation of this would result in widespread chaos and can ulimately harm the very economy you purport to help.

  19. Jlanute says:

    Every single one of you, including blakstne11 have broken the law. Period. Thump your law books all you want, you are all guilty of crime at one time or another, and now you are above the law because you are jelious of the Mexican’s and their ability to rally togather.
    I am with you blakstnell, no more. When you atone for all the laws you broke, we will talk about this again.

  20. Biloxi says:

    If that becomes your only rationale left you are grasping at straws to justify that which you know is wrong. True, many if not most of us have broken the law. The difference is we do not continue to break the law on a daily basis. Buying stolen social security numbers compounds that and so on.

    You also cannot present the entire illegal immigration problem under that prism. Doing so lends credence to blkstne’s earlier premise that it is then okay to steal, murder, sell drugs in the schoolyard or any of a number of illegalities. It is the same theory as saying someone who doesn’t teach can’t criticze education or non-politicians have no say in government. It sounds nice but one cannot hide behind it forever.

    By the way, what would lead you to think I or anyone else is jealous of the illegal’s ability to rally together? I admire that anyone can pull that many people together for a common cause but when that cause is a DEMAND that we legitimize lawbreaking and forgive all for doing so, I will speak out.

  21. Jlanute says:

    Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t that your rational? That they broke the law?

  22. Biloxi says:

    No it is not the entire rationale. It is a component of the entire argument I have made, one that is conveniently forgotten as people paint my stance as anti-immigration. Illegality is not good for the immigrant either. Amnesty for the entire 11-12 million is bad policy, not all of those illegals are Snow White and not all are from Mexico either.

    American, needs the workers, America benefits from the workers, we need to get them here legally so they can benefit better themselves. We’re looking big picture. After President Reagan granted amnesty to the 3 or 4 million at the time it was supposed to end things, now it’s 11 - 12 million. What will it be in 2026, 25 million?

    There is a way we can fill the pipeline with workers who are willing to work, channelling them to employers who need them without it creating an illegal and permanent underclass.

  23. Jlanute says:

    I have to make a confession. I do not have any illegal employees. The company follows the guidelines set by the Federal Goverment.
    We have had good employees leave because these guidlines put the burden of enforcement on the employers back. Why the hell should we be the border patrol to people who want to work?

  24. Biloxi says:

    I agree, the employer shouldn’t bear the brunt but they are partially culpable. I want a soulution where those who want to work can and we can bring them in legally so both the employer and employee can benefit fully.

    Under the current system the good get lumped in with the bad, guest workers and work visas with a path towards citizenship would be a great start.

    Don’t be too hard on the border patrol, they are understaffed and underpaid. Our representatives in Washington need to put together a plan that starts with enforcement and doesn’t demagogue the issue.
    Fat chance with the current political climate.

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